Let’s say just like for example like MacOS. It’s awesome we have so many tools but at the same time lack of some kind of standardization can seem like nothing works and you get overwhelmed. I’m asking for people that want to support Linux or not so tech-savy people.
Simple, start teaching it in elementary school all the way up through high school. Apple did it long ago and got apple users out of those kids. Microsoft does it now, and now you have Windows users. Just need the computer education to be Linux centric from the start. It’s not that it’s different, it’s that it’s not what they grew up with and were taught.
Windows hasn’t been in schools for a while. It is all Chrome OS
I think it depends. If a school has a laptop for each student, it is most certainly a Chromebook. However, a lot of schools also have a mix of systems. In elementary school, I was taught to use Microsoft Office on Windows, for instance. At my high school, all the students had Chromebooks, but there were also some labs with Windows machines; graphic design, photography, and film classes had labs full of 5K iMacs.
Chromebooks are low cost and easy to manage. Unless it is for a highly specific use I wouldn’t be surprised if a school was all Chromebooks and Chromeboxes.
Also there is a public high school full of expensive macs? That’s wild
Not exactly “full of” - it was more like 3 classrooms with 30 each. Still a lot of Macs, but keep in mind this was a high school of 2000 students. Also, I’m pretty sure the Macs were paid for with grants for the visual arts programs rather than standard public funding.
Kinda don’t think you can its one of the beauties of Linux, there’s so many different flavors of it. Best thing that would’ve helped me as a beginner would’ve been like a collection of all the wiki’s and basic knowledge in a single space instead of searching through different sites for a problem or terminal commands, which I bet exists but I just never looked too hard. Also documentation of common problems would’ve been big for me (especially for older devices) like drivers no longer being supported by kernels and solutions like using the open source version instead.
By telling users to change their mindset, by showing em how control is important and how the “just werks” mentality imposed by Microsoft is more detrimental than anything.
“Just works” is not a mentality imposed by Microsoft, and has nothing to do with loss of control. It’s simply (a consequence of) the idea that things which can be automated, should be. It is about good defaults, not lack of options.
I have been forced to use mac now for like a year, and I don’t get the whole “just works” opinion of it. Like I have had so many issues with just basic stuff. Turning off mouse acceleration and the mouse still feels all slimy. Highest mouse speed is so slow and setting it higher requires some crazy tricks, which also does not work consistently through boots. It can’t wake up a lot of monitors, I have to turn them off and on manually. If it cannot connect to a monitor properly but tries, it like disables your keyboard for a few seconds while trying. Some items in the settings menu take a long time to load, as in if I reboot, log in, open settings, there is no mouse settings.
The problem is, that no operating system “just works”. It also highly depend on what the person wants to achieve, and if there are any pre experience with computers or even relying on existing software or specific hardware. My recommendation is not to tell people the illusion of “just works” and be honest upfront. People should learn how it works, what to expect and if tradeoffs, time and resources are worth it.
Same is true for the other way too. Does Windows “just works”? Especially if someone switches from Linux to Windows.
Rather, we should teach the reasons to switch and encourage that decision. In example why it matters to have control over your system, rather than the company has control over it (MacOS and Windows) or why spying on you is bad (Windows). And encourage giving up something you are used to (and maybe paid). Sometimes its okay to use a program that is not as good as Photoshop. Sometimes its okay to give up playing a videogame you like (and maybe associated with friends playing that game with you). But most people are not ready to do it, because that is associated with lowering quality of life.
I switched in 2008 from Windows XP to Ubuntu. I know these struggles. And they are not over yet. This is an ongoing task between my brother and me too, and he was using the Steam Deck, but decided to go with Windows 11 with the recent build. It was almost there, but there is always a butt. I say, don’t tell people that “Linux just works”. No operating system “just works”.
I hate to say this, but windows rarely breaks itself from updates. basic things like the desktop, audio and the lock screen is essentially never broken after an update.
yeah it may reset the audio settings and other such things, and I don’t know how do they manage to do that, but that’s relatively simple to revert.
probably it’s just thanks to old, battle tested code though. can’t wait for Linux desktop systems to reach that point
Most common Linux distributions focused on stability do not randomly break with updates. That’s usually not an issue. Basic things like Desktop and audio or lock screen are also never broken after an update. But it depends on the Linux operating system you are using (there are thousands of Linux operating systems and they can vastly differ) and what hardware and habits you have. Windows biggest strength is that it gets the most support from developers and being basically only one distribution to target.
But calling Windows “battle tested code” is a bit of stretch. Windows is full of problems and I had my own issues due to updates of Windows (when I was using it in dual boot). Also in Linux I can update and do not boot until I want to boot. I can decide not to update. Overall I have more trust in Linux updates (even using on Archlinux) than Windows updates. Microsoft constantly fucks up updates. And they even introduce and install stuff you don’t know or want to.
An old story of mine buying Civilization 6 at launch on Windows was unplayable. After days and contacting support, turned out it was a Skype installer that was installed with a Windows update without my knowledge. And it was just an installer to install Skype, not even running. Removing it made my game Civilization 6 playable. I never had such an issue on Linux.
I tried switching to Linux many years ago (forgot what distro). It was hell.
I don’t remember the specifics anymore, but I remember encountering issues almost every step of the way. Driver support, not being able to find the right buttons, etc. Searching for fixes usually led me down a rabbit hole of “oh cool this user on this forum said in another thread that I just need to install Gobbledegook… But what is it and how do I install it?” and of course a bunch of things require CLI which I’m not fantastic at. Unfortunately I gave up after a week.
Compared to that, Windows really “just works”. I have had my share of frustrations, but it’s usually with stuff that’s comparatively an edge case when compared to the problems I had with Linux. I don’t like that I’m giving money/data to a megacorp, but the price of that is convenience. I don’t churn my own butter, I don’t build my own car, I don’t want to think too much about how my OS works under the hood.
Also, Linux does not auto-update itself, and that’s bad mostly when looking at the programs (like the web browser) that did that automatically, and here it can’t anymore.
I understand that most users don’t update their system and the utils they downloaded, but that’s essential for a web browser.
I was considering that I should just install Firefox as the fatpak for everyone, instead of the core package manager, for this and other reasons, but my users have so little memory in their old machines that it’s already barely necessary.
you can’t because it’s explicitly against the whole point of having endless choices. when everyone works on something different, the quality spreads out to where it’s mostly just mediocre stuff across the board.
hardware compatibility is also a huge problem. for everyone that says “it works fine for me” there are a thousand others for whom it does not.
when everyone works on something different, the quality spreads out to where it’s mostly just mediocre stuff across the board.
I wouldn’t say that’s the only problem. We have pretty high quality stuff on Linux. The other problem is that choice always means differences between options which makes perfect integration hard or even impossible.
Yeah but you can have default choices that are guarantee to work.
And yeah preinstalled checked hardware would be ideal.
I feel like there’s also the point that on Mac OS a lot of stuff “just works” because everything else just doesn’t work at all. I have a number of things that just aren’t going to work at all on Mac. Linux is obviously much more permissive, which leads to a lot more kinda working stuff that just wouldn’t work at all on Mac.
I get downvoted to oblivion when I point out “just works” isn’t true.
You make a great point about endless choices.
No single UI, no single set of tools, those are massive barriers. And it’s why Windows became the de facto standard: single UI, consistent toolset.
And it’s why Windows became the de facto standard: single UI, consistent toolset.
No so true after win 7, there’s a bunch of legacy menu.
It’s at least the same inconsistent toolset as everyone else. Windows 10? Ok go through this multi step process. 11? Ok this other slightly different process.
VS Linux you have 700 consistent toolsets, and 70000000 inconsistent toolsets.
To make Linux more appealing to the average person, you’d have to be able to buy a Linux PC at your local computer store. Most people can’t be bothered to install a new OS.
That’s also true but also impossible. Linux isn’t a for profit company.
Perhaps someone could make a business of it then.
Chromebooks sold well enough. Google made $30 billion on that in 2023.
Anyone willing to put together a physical Linux machine, market and support it could take a chunk of that.
No major OEM will do a consumer Linux PC because MS will punish them with Windows licence pricing. You’d have to be a newcomer that’s not beholden to MS. At the same time, you’d need a shitload of cash to start a hardware business with enough volume to get into big box stores. That’s why it hasn’t happened yet
For me it was always a niche that wasn’t taken full advantage of.
Chromebooks never really made sense outside of schools and old people.
The OS is hyper limited to essentially just a web browser, and android apps (so just a web browser). Nobody wants to buy premium hardware to use with just Chrome. But at the same time it’s Chrome, so you really need at least a good chunk of RAM. So it really just limits you to the super light use cases, but those could realistically be replaced by a tablet.
The other day we saw an extremely odd device at malwart. They had a $270 laptop/tablet hybrid thing with a fairly nice OLED display, and a snapdragon CPU that should have been more that sufficient. But 128gb of EMMC storage, and 4 gigs of ram. Such wasted potential. It would make a nice RDP machine I guess.
lol wtf are you talking about? You can literally take $100 off the price of a computer just because it’s not bundled with a Winderps license - the price is straight up lower because the license cost is $0. You can order some models like this straight from Dell or Lenovo or whatever.
OEMs aren’t paying $100 per license. They’re also taking deals with McAfee/Norton/whatever to package a bunch of extra crap on your windows laptop to lower the price further.
What are you even talking about? Anyone can sell a PC with pre-installed Linux. There are already several companies today so just that.
Let me clarify myself
*It’s impossible to get big corporate guys attention so they ship Linux by default and it’s clearly tested. For now the Valve, System76, Framework and Tuxedo are exception.
Edit: Also I was keeping in mind corporatr entity behind OS.
- Apple - MacOS
- Microsoft - Windows
- ? - Linux
Dell sells PC’s with Linux installed.
Not in retail stores though AFAIK
Correct. I was just touching on the big corporations point since they listed some online only retailers.
It would be a real leap forward, if Linux PCs were sold in big box stores. Which is why Microsoft will do anything they can to prevent that.
Dell have at times sold laptops with Linux pre installed.
Can you buy a Dell laptop with Linux at a retail store?
The big guys won’t sell Linux to consumers because of Microsoft’s anticompetitive practices. That’s the main thing that’s holding back Linux acceptance right now. But if some big player (e.g. Valve) would take the leap, things might get interesting.
“It’s impossible. Let me list 4 exceptions though”
Hahaha true 😆
But the scale is too small for now. :/
I’ve seen this type of question elsewhere. Why is it an issue?
Standardisation? Corporate Linux? Just like the big boys? Big fish eat little fish.
Careful what you ask for . .
I don’t see it as impossible. Like various brands are distributed with windows, various brands can be distributed with various Linux distros, customizable by distro and features, pre-order. These brands can work out a donation contract with distros.
If you sell a Linux machine to consumers, Microsoft will screw you over on Windows licencing. No current OEM will risk that.
Yes, but also companies say that Linux support is not worthit (gaining money and spending on the support) compared to - slapping barely working Windows port and call it a day.
For now Linux support is more like pleasant surprise than a official respected thing.
I bet when demand crosses a certain threshold, support supply will quickly follow, gatekeepers bedamned.
Whether any OS could ever just work isn’t even going to solve the issue.
Getting OEMs to sell laptops and desktops in Best Buy (or the like) that have Linux installed and is properly supported — that is what will help solve the issue.
having it just work is a necessary step to gett there
When there exists an operating system that can satisfy that qualification, I’ll concede the point. Until then, OEM and retail support is what matters.
Software, 1,000%. I love linux and daily drive it. But when I have videos to edit, photos to rework, or collateral to design I have a windows laptop with professional grade tools to do the job.
I’m sorry, gimp is hot garbage. There isn’t a pro-grade, open source video editing tool or anything close. Inkscape is useable in a pinch. Scribus is useless.
Not everyone is a multimedia creative professional, but most software on linux never quite have the features you need, are no longer maintained, or will be useful in ten years.
That said, I’d still rather break out the laptop when doing client work than daily drive MacOS or Windows 11. Either way the barrier for most users is that linux almost works.
At least we have Bitwig for music production now (if you can work out how to use it… I still haven’t had the time :-/ )
There isn’t a pro-grade, open source video editing tool or anything close
Do you use open source professional grade video editing tools on Windows? Almost certainly not, so why would it be a requirement for Linux?
What we need is companies producing Linux builds of professional grade closed source software. And if the trend of Microsoft making terrible decisions and Linux use increasing, it might actually happen.
This kind of opens up its own point: people need to accept that non-free software isn’t the devil. It actually can be really good for a community to have large entities investing real, actual USD dollars into it, and creating products and services that people want to pay for. It absolutely shouldn’t be the only option, FOSS is a beautiful thing and I love that the Unix community puts a huge emphasis on it. But, without some heavy hitters putting some money on the table, Linux/BSD will always be niche. They won’t go away, but they won’t blow up either.
Gimp works really well, just that it is destructive editting.
As for the software not having features or not being useful, part of that comes down to: if a company offers a linux version make sure you use it. For a proprietary MCAD and PLM system from Siemens, we had a unix version, then windows, then when Linux was viable with support on SUSE and RHEL we had the exact software OEM aerospace and Automotive engineers used for design and management. Trouble is not enough companies used it to make supporting it a worthwhile effort, so they ditched the GUI desktop support. You can still run the few years old version. Maybe it will come back with Linux rising from 1-2% to 4.5% ; if that trend continues
Thank you thank you thank you for posing this question.
This is the biggest issue by far with open source stuff in general, and as a non-programmer who wants to use more and more of it, user unfriendliness hamstrings so much.
I don’t know the answers but I can tell you for a fact that if open source in general is serious about broader adoption, this needs to be occupying 50% of everybody’s open source discussion time, at least.
What I know is the standard “fuck you read my 19 pages of 1s and 0s” is the wrong answer.
Maybe good design is just really hard. I don’t know, I’ve never tried to do it. Seems like the sort of thing that might take three thousands iterations.
The issue starts at the fact that it’s difficult to find a computer sold by a common major distributor with Linux already installed, nor does Linux have any marketing aside from word of mouth to compete with the aggressive Microsoft/Apple duopoly.
The threshold to entry begins at simply having the technical prowess to install an alternative operating system on one’s computer, which I don’t believe a good majority of people are even capable of. Before that, people also need an incentive to transition in the first place. They’ve probably been using their current OS for a good portion of their life and are more than comfortable with it without putting themselves through another learning curve.
The average person isn’t considering an alternative to what they’re already using, and if they are, it usually isn’t Linux. The biggest problem isn’t appeal or ease of use; it’s exposure and immediate accessibility.
That said, performance and simplicity would be an excellent selling point for Linux. It would be absolutely worth banking on the open-source nature of it to appeal to a growing demographic of people interested in privacy-oriented tech as well.
BazziteOS is really straightforward. Newbies can just jump on there.
This. I’ve tried around 10 distros. Bazzite is exacly that.
If I haven’t heard of it, then the average Windows user definitely hasn’t heard of it.
While you are correct, Bazzite is a drop-in OS replacement for Steamdeck and Asus ROG Ally, so there’s a lot of potential for more people hearing about it as it gets more popular.
As others have said, macOS does not “just work” anymore.
I am primary tech support for a few “normy” users including my mother and wife. My wife, the more technical and capable of the two, uses macOS. My mother uses Windows. My wife requires substantially more tech support. Worse, the issues are often complete mysteries to me like “why is everything so slow” and it turning out that some OS level process is consuming huge amounts of memory and / or CPU. Web searches reveal lots of people with similar issues but no real insight into what to do about it or why it is happening. I have moved OS versions just to solve this kind of crap on Mac. Another problem is software not working on older versions of the OS.
I am no Windows lover but, once I show my mother how to do something, I never hear from her. Every once in a while I stop by to marvel at how many updates need to be applied but that is about it. She is in the Windows 10 that I installed for her many years ago now. It just works.
- Idiot proofing
- Automation, integration and premade scripts and GUI tools for the use of tools such as wine and other pain point relief software
- Idiot proofing
- Decrease choice fatigue by decreasing the number of choices visible by default as much as possible (Ubuntu is an okay example/starting point in my opinion)
- Make a one-stop-shop wiki or equivalent with the specific purpose of giving explanations to non Linux-savvy people
I think that the proliferation of software/app centers is a great development when it comes to package management. Guides should mention them as an option to install whatever packages are needed, as a lot of people are clearly afraid of terminals.
Which leads to the “more GUI tools” point, which I’m sure everyone knows by now.
Also, you know how Windows update is so aggressive with getting you to update? That’s for a reason.
It is very hard, time consuming and boring to iron out those finishing issues in any software product. You need team of people being paid for that.
When doing it for fun, I just go until it works and until it is fun. As soon as I come to those last 20% I never touch it anymore.
So ai doubt it will happen until more companies start paying decelopera to do it. But I don’t see the business model in that, so I doubt it will get better fast.
After getting used to KDE I still need to use windows for work. People think big companies iron out all the bugs but they really don’t. We’re just so used to our default OS that we don’t notice the bugs we deal with every single session.
Windows has tons of buggy base functionality but users just work around it. KDE’s base functionality is actually quite solid by comparison. You only run into issues with more technical compositor stuff that an average user would probably not interact with.