They say that GNU is spreading misinformation and “stop getting info from charlatans”?
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Graphene is against GNU ideals getting in the way of security, because as it turns out, they do. FSF’s definition of “ok” and “not ok” firmware blobs is bogus anyway.
Edit: for all the people who don’t get this: THE FSF IS FUCKING OKAY WITH PROPRIETARY FIRMWARE BLOBS, but only if they are in a separate (usually user-inaccessible) storage chip and if you don’t update it; they only deem that morally ok, yet it’d be the same as loading the blobs from the disk (which makes devices MUCH SAFER to update, you don’t risk a brick). They get in the way of security by abusing the trust y’all give them, cuz thank god nobody who does embedded dev takes their opinions seriously anyway. Also, you’re not giving up “A bit of security”, you’re giving up fucking microcode updates, the ones that patch well-known vulnerabilities that allow webpages to gain root access. FFS.
Graphene is against GNU ideals getting in the way of security,
Funny, Graphene’s obsession with security is getting in the way of my ideals.
Fuck Google and their proprietary security updates. I want no Google in my life and if that means a bit less security, I’m okay with that. In fact, I’d argue that running Google code that does who-knows-what for your security is itself not a very safe thing to do.
This is begging the question, there’s nothing confusing or incorrect about what GrapheneOS posted. GNU/FSF is a cult that has always been making their own arbitrary rules for what qualifies and what does not qualify as free software (I am not saying the OSI is any better in that regard, Raymond is a clown).
I highly suggest reading this mailing list thread where RMS fails to understand copyright law and thinks you can relicense permissive code to GPL, and refuses to call OpenBSD free because the ports system can be used to build a few pieces of non-free software, even though no parts of the ports tree itself are non-free (wait until he hears you can download Windows ISOs off of a web browser).
Raymond is a fucking incel. His site is a collection of cringe and “yes, this entry here, officer”.
You deleted your last post on a similar topic, which had some excellent discussion and comments, and now all of that good content for lemmy is gone.
Deleting posts is not great for the community.
As bad as reddit is, it does suck that a lot of people who left decided to wipe all their comments/posts too. Huge amount of useful data just gone.
Reddit is trying to sell that data. I would like to sabotage that. Also, some of my activity on Reddit especially early on was quite toxic so I’d rather it be lost anyway.
Yes but millions were also providing that data for free until Reddit decided it was all theirs to control and monetize. Don’t blame the users.
Saying it sucks = blaming the users? Okay.
Saying “it sucks that they decided” sounds like blaming these users.
I really hope someday folks in the internet learn how to properly use quotation marks and why paraphrasing but adding quotation isn’t okay. Someday…
The thing is, I didn’t agree to sell my content for a 0% cut.
Reddit has always had ads. That’s a stupid Argument.
Yes, when you publicly posted things online.
Disney murder case type of legal bullshit vibes here
I’m not a fan of GrapheneOS, but the point they bring up here is valid. There is already proprietary firmware on your computer. There’s no reason why you shouldn’t be updating it to protect yourself from serious exploits. The FSF takes an ideological stance rather than a practical one, unfortunately.
Except they also advocate using compute devices that only use blobless firmware
Yeah, the FSF stance on firmware is really weird.
Basically, if the firmware is not intended to be updated it’s fine. But distributing updates, like security fixes, for firmware as blobs is somehow bad.
However, there is one exception for secondary embedded processors. The exception applies to software delivered inside auxiliary and low-level processors and FPGAs, within which software installation is not intended after the user obtains the product. This can include, for instance, microcode inside a processor, firmware built into an I/O device, or the gate pattern of an FPGA. The software in such secondary processors does not count as product software.
https://ryf.fsf.org/about/criteria
Here’s an article from the previous time (?) this topic came up.
I agree with you: the FSF can seem unwavering in their stance, even in the face of practicality. I’m really sorry for this incredibly nit-picky detail, but I think practicality is ideological too. For better or for worse, we can’t escape ideas or be free from them, so we have to choose which we value. For example, while I tend to choose software freedom over practicality, I also have, at times, chosen practicality over freedom.
I think your question is answered by the thread you linked. Is there something in particular you don’t understand?
GNU/the FSF says that GrapheneOS does not qualify as free software (which is true, it’s not completely FLOSS as per the FSF’s definition—the linked GNU article classifies plenty of popular Linux distros we consider to be FOSS as non-free, btw, they’re not singling out Graphene), and GrapheneOS is saying they don’t want to fit the FSF’s definition of free software because it would mean a lack of security (which is also true; they need proprietary firmware updates from Google). The FSF has a strict definition of free software which a lot of software does not meet, and usually an entire operating system would only meet the FSF’s definition out of a deliberate, conscious, ideological decision to exclude all non-free software. In their article they even list Debian as a distro which no longer meets their standards, despite Debian being known for their strict policy around only including FOSS in their repos.
This is an instance of two different entities (GNU and GrapheneOS) having fundamentally different goals (one values a strict definition of free software at all costs, one values security at all costs). You are more than welcome to do things GNU’s way if you don’t like GrapheneOS’s way, or vice versa.
Best description.
I think we need uncompromising people in this world. Doesn’t mean we have to listen or follow everything they say though. Those are my thoughts on GNU.
Pointless over-reaction from GrapheneOS. GNU is harshly honest about the open-source stuff - blobs are obviously, proprietary, and so are Google-based softwares and services.
I’m afraid to ask this because I’m not a dev, but I have a fair amount of linux experience. Why is it that the ability to install Google Play Services on GrapheneOS makes it not FOSS/open source, while the ability to install Google Chrome (or any proprietary software, I guess) on Linux doesn’t make is non-FOSS/open source?
I’m not articulating that question very well, and I’m assuming I’m missing some key component, but they seem comparable to me, as a regular user. Is it something like the level of access that GPServices has to the kernel?
Thank you for asking a question that you were afraid to.
You could just have easily moved on, but instead you give others the opportunity to share their knowledge and subsequently you give other people opportunities to learn.
Maybe one day we can have an internet not so full of snarky replies, and instead one where everyone is given opportunities to learn, and ask, without fear of being belittled.
In order to give those with knowledge the opportunities to share, we need to ask questions that are indicative of our current understanding (or lack thereof).
It may sound silly, but asking questions really is a vulnerable act. Genuine questions are often met with unjustified and unhelpful hostility on the internet.
tl;dr: Thanks for asking! Now I’m wondering the same thing.
edit: a word
I don’t have a precise answer as I’m not from that team, but as a developer I think I have a decent idea as to why, and it’s mostly political.
First, I don’t think it’s necessarily the ability to install Play Services that makes them think it’s not FOSS, but that they distribute non-free firmware blobs which are necessary to make practically any modern phone function properly, that’s just the unfortunate reality because “we live in a society” that enables it. By that logic, I think they believe the vast majority of running Linux kernels on the planet are not FOSS. GNU would rather have things that are not practical and don’t exist today… their stance is not currently realistic in our capitalist society IMO. They hope for things to change, but hope doesn’t make change.
I also think some people look down on the Play Services thing merely because they went out of their way to explicitly support it in the OS, and basically nothing else. They disagree ideologically with F-Droid and they don’t offer any other app stores by default to my knowledge.
On Linux most distros do not actually ship chrome but chromium which is the open source version of chrome.
It also comes down to how different groups define FOSS. GNU considers even helper programs (like a package manager or firmware installer) to be “bad” for the user because they “encourage” its use so they dont want them included in GNU approved distros like trisqul or guix . this leads to those “freedom respecting” distros not having things like basic WiFi drivers or support for any 3rd party drivers.
To a less extreme degree but similar is a distro like debian, where there is a “non_free” repository available but users can choose not to enable it.
And so GNU sees having the playstore as a bad thing because its gateway to installing other non free software. Its also safe to assume most gnu evangelists probably don’t care much for chromium either.