not helping lemmy’s extremist-leaning reputation guys
If it’s not right for them, it’s not right for us. I understand there are times when a person’s opinions and character deserve harsh criticism, but providing information that may result in real-world violence is different.
If it’s not right for them, it’s not right for us
Doxing, say, women who’ve had abortions or trans people so they can be imprisoned or killed by 3%ers is just fundementally different than doxing a murderous fascist in order to protect people’s lives.
Outcome matters.
It’s OK if I do it.
Unbelievable.
Self defense isn’t murder.
When it gets into preemptive self defense…probably murder? But what if you are reasonably sure it will be too late to defend yourself later? Do you let yourself or those you love die? But people can weaponize that line of thinking in bad faith, they murder someone and say it was self defense because the other guy was definitely gonna do it. It seems too awful to allow, and yet for some people, it might be the only thing that stops them from getting killed. Clearly nobody should be expected to wait until the knife is in their neck to say, “well, at least I waited long enough to make sure I should have already done something”.
A whole line of thinking that can be prevented by nazis not openly threatening rape, which is the real headline here.
Yes, actually, there’s no obligation to extend the protections of the social contract to those actively attempting to destroy it.
Why are you so invested in the rights of Nazis? They’re not people
I’m going down in flames with you if need be. Wrong is wrong.
- Martin Luther King Jr. “The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate…”
I can see scenarios where violence becomes necessary, but not as vigilantes and it should be at the very end of the list.
You literally refuse to understand the reasoning and will only see this at surface value. Things are approaching the level of fucked that can only be fixed with a come to Jesus moment (so to speak). If you can’t or won’t understand what is actually at stake and how dire things are, just do nothing on the sidelines and see how long it is before your starts to seem a LOT smaller than you thought it was.
It’s you who refuse to understand. You don’t tolerate a Nazi. I think the next several months will hopefully be eye opening for people like you (one can hope).
I’m saying the same thing you are. The only good nazi is one who has been giving a one-way ticket, leaving existence.
No, I’m saying the same thing you are!
Yes, it is okay if you do it, as long as it’s to a Nazi
I can’t believe my comment got removed for saying that it’s a good thing when Nazis get doxxed
That’s a term that has lost all meaning, thanks to people like you.
Nick Fuentes is literally an unabashed neonazi lmao
Huh. I thought you were using “nazi” the way the other side uses “fake news”.
They are literally gathering lists of outgroups and minorities right now. Kinda hypocritical if you ask me.
I don’t care about their safety anymore. They don’t care about mine. What’s that phrase they like to regurgitate? FAFO?
Man, some of the takes here make me sad. Thanks to those who upvoted the idea that ethics don’t change when someone is sure they’re right in changing them “this time”. I want to be clear - I’m not painting all or even most Lemmy users with this brush. However, what I’m seeing lately is such a disconnect to me:
- “Woke snowflakes aren’t people” “Women are property” “Hamas (aka all Palestinians) aren’t people” = outrage at the dehumanization (very rightfully so).
- But then: “Trump voters are Nazis and Nazis aren’t people” “The people who didn’t vote or voted 3rd party are just as bad as them” = upvotes, “they don’t deserve rights” and “when they suffer it will be justice” comments. (To reiterate, I’m not saying everyone here, but enough to be worrying.)
This election broke people, and I really don’t like how readily some who claim to be ethical are supporting what seems to me to be hate speech by way of dehumanization. If Trump had lost and his followers were saying similar things but pointed it at “woke leftists” or “communists”, you all would be incredibly upset (rightfully so). Even though the Trumpers saying those things would truly think they were saving their country, the way some people here seem to think they are.
Ok, I believe you are sincere and appreciate the perspective. There’s a difference between doxing Nick Fuentes, and doxing every trump voter. (In my opinion)
Do you believe violence can ever be considered justified? If you are a pure dogmatic pacifist, I believe your position is logically consistent.
If not: what circumstances can justify violence? Can the police or the military act within morality? Is justice defined by law or outcome?
If the state is unable or unwilling to protect a marginalized group of people, at what point does it become moral to defend themselves?
Well, thanks for talking to me in good faith. I’m trying to make good faith arguments. It’s really difficult to give a hard line about where violence is just because I’m sure ambiguity exists.
- Talking about the military: a declaration of civil war to save the country is a lot different than “his house is flammable” or “it would be a real shame if he was dealt with at night” which are exactly the kinds of things being said about Fuentes right now, on Lemmy. He’s undeniably a piece of shit, but vigilante killing isn’t alright. There are good reasons why soldiers killing others in the context of anti-fascist formal war would be treated differently than mob justice. If soldiers took it upon themselves to kill Fuentes without a declaration of civil war or something similarly legal, that would just be a crime or deployment of troops against American citizens. E.g. Lincoln didn’t tell Northerners to head South and start indiscriminately killing to end slavery, it was a war with rules like the chance to surrender, etc.
- Things like actual rape and murder should merit at least an attempt at justice within the bounds of law. And as far as I know, Fuentes hasn’t done either - people right now want him dead because of his words. As an example, people didn’t kill the January 6 protesters - they got put through the legal system and were punished. Would you argue that it would have been a proud and just moment in US history if those hundreds of rioters should have been identified and murdered back in 2021, by other civilians, without trial? I know Trump might release them - does that possibility mean they should have been murdered by a counter mob back then? The J6ers weren’t just talking like Fuentes either, they straight up attempted a coup.
- Israelis regularly kill non-violent Palestinians in the West Bank. They put Palestinians, including children, into prison without charges or trial, and some of them end up raped and tortured. It’s called administrative detention and it’s done because “the threat must be contained”. It’s also an enormous injustice. I feel the same way about extrajudicial killings of civilians, even if I think they’re terrible people. I wouldn’t support Ukrainian forces slaughtering Russian towns that could be proven to support Putin, even though I hate Putin.
- It’s the election loss that seems to be fuelling the rapid escalation of rhetoric here on Lemmy. I saw lots of bullying before, but not many people calling for actual killing. Why is it that the election loss, alone because nothing else has happened yet, made vigilantism ethical?
The moment you see people who voted for Harris assaulting third-party voters, you let me know. Some of the takes are over the top, but where they’re coming from is completely understandable. Dehumanization is an attempt to rationalize away empathy to prevent guilt and trauma from what people think is the fight to come.
The moral high road is littered with the corpses of people who tried to fight fair. In self-defense, there are 2 rules: a battle not fought is a battle won, and, if you have to hurt a man, hurt him so bad that you need never fear his vengeance.
If doxxing a couple of assholes like this is enough to intimidate the bigots who are now emboldened to attack and rape people and save even a few lives, then it’s worth it - we’ve solved things with rule number one. If it doesn’t stop them, then fyi: the back of the eye socket is thin enough to push through with your thumb and into the brain behind it. There’s no such thing as “fighting dirty” when it comes to survival. There’s no room for mercy when somebody is trying to kill you, and these people have tried before and say that they’re going to try again.
We all hope it doesn’t come to that, but it is better to be prepared and not need it than to wish you had it when the jackboots are stomping on you. And when somebody has told you who they are, you believe them. If it quacks like a Nazi, swims like a Nazi, and goose-steps like a Nazi, then it ain’t a duck.
Oh won’t someone please think of the poor nazis?
Liberals and fascists, name a more iconic duo
Pro-violence Lemmy users and power fantasies in magical worlds where they kill a few dozen people and the world is saved.
I don’t think anyone is under the illusion that if/when violence breaks out, a few people will die.
It won’t be a few if that happens, it won’t be limited to those that chose to fight (on either side), and deaths won’t be the only serious consequence. That’s why other people are asking for level heads.
I think admins should do whatever is necessary to comply with their local laws, and that’s all I’ve got to say about that.
insane how far i had to scroll to find this. my first thought was “yo a lot of instances are hosted in the US i’d hate for this power tripping admin to get those servers in trouble for content that isn’t theirs” but apparently everyone else’s first thought was “wow you must be a nazi for caring go die mad” :(
fortunately my admin has informed me they think my instance is safe but like that’s not a given for everyone! i think it’s fair to check in with your admins just to be safe
Then leave? Nobody is telling you to be here. It’s still a free* country.
They probably want to stay and steer their fellow citizens away from violent crimes and towards resisting in ways that don’t make them look like murderous stalkers. Why don’t you leave? If the US has become awful enough to justify these crimes, you’re still free to do so. You said so yourself.
Sounds like we all should move to where you’re at. Where do you live?
Canada. Hope you’ve got a job considered valuable, because there’s a lot of Americans trying to get here apparently.
How in demand is warehouse maintenance work?
Rebrand as oil and gas facility repair and you might get hired here in Alberta lol Our current Premier is very pro-fossil fuel.
What do you do? I’ll just take your job IRL like these dipshit MAGA Republicans complain about anyways.
- Terms and Conditions may apply
It should be everywhere.
And don’t come to me with the bullshit ‘tolerance paradox’. Tolerance is not a human right. It’s a clause of a societal contract and whoever start by breaking the contract is no longer covered by it.
Nazis get punched and nazis get doxxed.
Wait am I just misunderstanding what the Tolerance Paradox is?
My read of the Tolerance Paradox is that it’s Ok to punch Nazis because if you render yourself unwilling to participate in violence, there are others who will happily do it for (to) you.
The tolerance paradox is the idea that the one thing tolerant people cannot tolerate is intolerance. Doing so allows intolerance to take root and potentially win because it’s unopposed. Which I agree with. Where I split from some people in this and other threads is believing that not tolerating intolerance = killing those you consider intolerant. I know you only said punching, but if people start beating people en masse (and a lot of people are considered Nazis nowadays) it’s going to escalate very quickly. Plus some are already calling for more than punching.
I think Ghandi and his followers understood this.
And Ghandi also has quotes saying you have an obligation to try peace at first but sometimes there is no alternative to violence, especially in self-defense.
https://www.azquotes.com/author/5308-Mahatma_Gandhi/tag/violence
Who?
A literal neo-nazi. He was on Infowars with NazYe too.
I don’t get that. Doesn’t Fuentes realize Kanye is black? Doesn’t Kanye realize Fuentes is a white supremacist? Why are they in cahoots?
Lol, don’t expect neonazis to be internally consistent when they can use “one of the good ones” to further the narrative against their class.
Doesn’t Kanye realize Fuentes is a white supremacist?
Fuentes sounds like a Latino name. Trump should have him deported.
/s
Right wing influencer who who tweeted out “Your body, my choice” in response to the abortion issue.
Actual fascists mirroring Hitler’s rise to power prior to WW2, using the same rhetoric of violence toward out-groups, a tyrant failing to be prosecuted under the law even though he was convicted of 34 felonies, going through the entire system with nothing to show for it, and you dumb fucking “centrists” still feel like things can be fixed through the utterly broken fucking system we’ve created.
Get your heads out of your fucking asses.
Okay but like you still shouldn’t dox people?
Like, I get it, we’re in a really bad spot right now. But publishing someone’s information on the internet is, if anything, just going to make them a martyr to those that want to opress.
It’s ok to dox fascists in order to combat fascism. You lose the right to privacy when you actively work towards brutalizing, enslaving and killing others.
No. You’re wrong. You’re absolutely wrong in this instance and you need to stop. Do not protect nazis. Ever. Full stop.
If you’re not going to help then at least for the love of fucking god get out of the way.
My guy let me spell it out for you, you fucking dumbass.
LITERAL NAZIS CAN ROT IN HELL. That’s it. You afford them nothing.
His address is public domain. I’m sure he has an unlisted number, so that would be a violation of privacy.
Nazis aren’t people
Don’t dehumanize any group of people and imply violence against them is ok.
I think I’m in the wrong place
You are correct. That’s what Nazis do. Don’t sink to their level.
Amen. Defy the urge to race to the bottom, even if it’s borne out of genuine, understandable grief and frustration.
Violence against self-identified Nazis is 100% ok. We had a whole big war like 100 years ago about this
If you’re in the wrong place, I’m here with you. There are ways to deal with people that aren’t dehumanization and vigilante mob justice. We’re 4 days past the election. I think we need to see if society can pull through and avert disaster with less escalation and violence.
E.g. there are a lot of legal challenges being prepared for the militarized internment camps that Trump campaigned on. Also, the things he promised are simply outside the logistical scope of agencies to provide. “For one, it’s entirely impractical from an operational standpoint. The law enforcement capacity needed to both secure the border and carry out mass raids in the interior of the US simply does not exist.”
Maybe things will get bad enough in the US to justify a civil war or something similar. It’s happened before (although even then it wasn’t just whoever felt violent killing each other - it was war with rules). Or maybe things like legal challenges, impossible scope, and half the nation’s disapproval will keep it from getting to that point. I’d like to keep extrajudicial violence off the table until we know.
Are you really arguing we should all be nicer to literal Nazis? That’s the group we are talking about.
Damn right it is lmao
People always sleepvon the Midwest, but we go hard out here man.
Gotta love the decentralized aspect of lemmy
Who? I’m not American if that helps.
No worries, I’m Canadian and I had to look it up. Nick Fuentes is one of the online bastards preaching open hatred. “Nicholas Joseph Fuentes (born August 18, 1998) is an American far-right political pundit and live streamer who promotes white supremacist, misogynistic, and antisemitic views.” Apparently he’s so vile even other Republicans are torn about associations with him - more in that article.
lol, He’s 27? Who listen to this asshat?
Tiny dicked incels with zero social skills who think women are property. AKA fascists.
white supremacist named Nicholas Joseph Fuentes
There’s just no way the right don’t see the irony.
They don’t. They’re genuinely stupid.
Is he the guy that came up with the phrase, “Your body, my choice”?
I don’t know if he coined the phrase, but he’s one of the first. “Nick Fuentes, an influential white nationalist podcaster, appears to be one of the early instigators in promoting the phrase on November 5. His X post, “Your body, my choice. Forever.” has since received 35 million views.”
He’s also the guy that said having sex with women is gay. Real charmer, that one
Yes, Every nonAmerican helps just a little. Thank you.
Yeah fuck that guy. You make your bed you sleep in.
We’re about to see a fascist america, and this is what you’re worried about?
Do you also feel bad for the Nazis in pre-war germany who got harmed? Or even killed? Chances are you don’t
Our world is about to become very different to what we’re used to. Get ready for it. Playing nice won’t win you the war
Report all you want. This is not getting taken down. Fuck nazis. —seahorse at midwest.social, admin, in a post with multiple calls to violence in the comments.
this is actually wild. i have no defense for nazis either but using your federation privileges like this is abuse of the system. midwest.social is not the only instance on the fediverse and instances that are receptive to this content being pushed across fedi are beholden to local law. i have petitioned my admin to defederate midwest.social as i want my instance to stay online.
Lololololololololool
Lmao, even
Sayonara, don’t let the door hit you on the ass on the way out
good news! spoke with my admin and my instance isn’t hosted in the US which means there’s very little danger and i get to stick around :D
even better news? Lemmy’s block feature works pretty well so I won’t have to deal with this cringey ass spammy ass comment behavior from you again ❤️❤️❤️❤️
EDIT: Fucking hell, nevermind. I found it. Under seahorse’s posts, not comments. He posted the damn doxx himself.
yeah careful tho .world mods were removing comments giving instructions to find it since it’s against their tos
To people advocating violence in this thread - let’s just ignore the immorality of convincing civilians to assault and kill other civilians. It’s clear that vigilantism falls within your ethical boundaries and you are unrepentant about it. So instead:
- If people start dying Trump will have the outrage-inducing incidents he DREAMS of. If someone kills Fuentes/others the cops will seize and search all their electronic devices and social media accounts. They’ll uncover all this violent vigilante rhetoric that radicalized the murderer and it will make the news. Trump will get all the proof he could want that “the enemy within” is a lethal threat, and he’ll make all these social media posts about “Trumpers are Nazis and Nazis aren’t people and only deserve bullets in their heads” national headlines. Fuentes and any others killed will be martyrs. Legal opposition that state governments, courts, civil liberty organizations, etc. are mustering will be swept away in the wake of radical left domestic terrorism and the fear it brings. Similar to how 9/11 turned into 20 years of war.
- Some people here are apparently living in a magical world where they punch millions and the Nazis fall to the ground wailing “Mein gott, I am undone! What a fool I’ve been. I’ll be a better person!” and everyone around them cheers and promises to oppose Trump and vote Democrat. Even worse are the ones who want to start shooting people, as if killing extremist, insane media figures like Fuentes will make their hateful audience concede and become good citizens. This morning I literally had someone reference Inglorious Basterds as proof the nation would rise up and support them. Life isn’t a Tarantino film and you aren’t Brad Pitt.
- What is actually going to happen if you punch these people is they will pull guns on you in self-defence and kill you, then get acquitted in conservative courts because you assaulted them. Remember crybaby Kyle Rittenhouse? If you shoot them, they will start killing people back. The plans to beat up and shoot fascists en masse is a wet dream for domestic terror organizations/militias like the Proud Boys. Violence won’t prevent purges, it will start them.
- Basically all of these keyboard warriors aren’t going to actually do any of the really illegal punching and killing they are so proud to demand. They’re quick to say all Nazis must die right now to prevent “tens of millions of deaths”, but THANKFULLY it doesn’t seem like they’re actually killing the Nazis near them (and they really, really shouldn’t). So far it’s all “I don’t live near him” and “it sure would be a shame if someone else did it <wink>”. For essentially everyone posting this crap, again thankfully, it’s just internet power fantasies and hoping someone impressionable commits the crime and takes the consequences.
I’m not defending fascist trash like Fuentes, but I am opposing these calls for his death at the hands of angry internet “warriors”. Instead of telling everyone to kill their fellow citizens, how about protesting and visibly showing support for the women and minorities being targeted? How about making sure every American knows about measures like Gavin Newsom “Trump-proofing” California, or all the people and states already setting up legal challenges to things like mass deportations. What about making sure people know the Pentagon is furiously planning to resist and delay controversial orders? I assure you the Pentagon, state authorities and civil liberties organizations have far more effective and legal plans than angry Lemmy users convinced they’re going to punch and kill their way to a safe nation.
In a nutshell: If they hit one side of your face, turn the other cheek. Repeat it until both your face fucking hurts and they think it’s violent of you instead not kneeling down, not spreading your arms wide open, not putting your tongue between your teeth, not lifting your chin, so they could just kick your chin while holding you down, until you eventually bite off your tongue. Maybe after that, they will have remorse and not continue kicking you to death on the ground.
They already have “violent vigilante rhetoric”. They send bomb threats to anyone remotely pro-LGBTQ+, because some Jewish collaborant told them they’re grooming kids by their mere existence. The moral high ground won’t save any of us.
You know one of the reasons why they’re calling us “cucks”? Because we will take the moral high ground every time they hit a new low, including on positions we have never really hold. Remember all the “why are you so intolerant of intolerance?” posts? That caused many of us to just go full out tolerant of nazis, to not appear “anti free speech”, which for them means “free from criticism and with a guaranteed audience”, not “free expression until you don’t hurt others”. Hell, at the end days of my “nihilistic edgelord” phase, if I wanted to joke about Stalin alongside of Hitler, I got called out on the former, because the latter “only killed 600 000 (!) people”. (A number from a then common and dumb holocaust denialist theory of “they accidentally put one extra zero there”)
In a nutshell
In a nutshell you don’t understand effective resistance, just violence. Your whole 1st paragraph is little more than torture porn - likely because you can’t argue with my specific points intellectually so you want to appeal to extremes of emotion.
Think. What do you suppose will accomplish more to slow and stop Trump? The Pentagon, state governments, courts, and civil rights organizations with their legal challenges and administrative knowledge? Or a couple hundred Lemmy warriors “storming” Chicago hunting podcasters and Illinois fascists who’ll they’ll magically identify and slaughter because you’re all supheroes apparently? And that’s assuming all of you aren’t just talking just talking tough because it makes you feel good, which has odds of very slim to none at all. Even -if- you could and actually would, do not sabotage real efforts towards foiling Trump by killing or assaulting people (not to mention your lives). If a civil war breaks out and it’s army vs. army that’s different, but the US isn’t near there yet and in the meantime you’re trying to be the WW2 Allies without the army or mandate.
They already have “violent vigilante rhetoric”.
“They’re evil so I should be allowed to do it too.” Let’s forget morality issues - in the context of murdering people like podcasters it doesn’t even make sense to race to the bottom. It will accomplish almost nothing and cause a host of problems. Let’s say miracles are real - you aren’t full of crap, you don’t get caught or killed, and you actually go murder Fuentes in cold blood or someone else like him. What do you honestly think the right’s response is going to be? “Oh crap, we better stop hating”? Creating martyrs and millions of angry, fearful people with guns is not the path to a safe nation.
You know one of the reasons why they’re calling us “cucks”?
Oh no, the incels and fascists on the extreme right don’t like me! …Are you really trying to tell me you’re upset about their insults? They can say whatever they want about me. Hell, you can too. I’m going to sleep just fine tonight without the approval of short-sided murder fetishists, regardless of whether they are your guys or Trump’s.
I wish I had your eloquence
That’s a wonderful compliment and I genuinely smiled. Everyone has their skills, and I’m 100% positive you exceed me in other ways. We all contribute.
Your points were a little wordy, but I think I can summarize this pretty succinctly:
- Republicans are fascists, and they’re in charge. Fall in line or you deserve what they do to you.
- I don’t like incivility and violence, but I don’t have any viable alternatives to offer. Regardless, fall in line or you’re actually the problem.
- Republicans are fascists, and they’re in charge. Fall in line or you deserve what they do to you. (x2)
- *screaming baby noises*
he could not, in fact, summarize it
- I gave alternatives at the bottom, about how to resist in a way that won’t hand the right everything they dream about, and get people killed (including a lot of people talking big if they follow through on their words).
- I gave alternatives at the bottom (x2)
- I gave alternatives at the bottom (x3), including examples of people already prepping resistance.
- You say “waah”, I say luckily, almost all of you (probably 100%) won’t do a single act you’re so happy to push for. Tell me tough boy, when are you personally planning on putting up instead of shutting up? I don’t think you will - I’m damn near positive you’ll just ragepost and grumble about how you totally would have and how heroic that makes you. And to be clear I definitely don’t think you should even if you’re mentally unbalanced enough to do so.
I dont think violence is generally demanded here though a certain amount of roleplaying is necessary to make it feel genuine. It is more that people want him to understand how it feels to have violence towards you a very real possibility because someone is painting a target on your back. Fuentes him self wont resort to violence mainly because he is just a cowardly manipulator and will never be a part of the mob (unless for occasional show). I think it is useful for such mob behaviour enablers to understand how it feels to be on the other end of the stick.
Die mad about it 🤷♂️
There are two stages when doing with Nazis.
In the first stage: mock the ever loving shit out of Nazis. Nazi thrive on being making people afraid of them. Hard for people to he afraid of you when everyone is mocking you.
Glitter bomb, flaming bags of poop, toilet paper, egg the Fuentes house. Draw penises on the walls. The more juvenile the prank, the better. Hard to be afraid of someone when they have massive penis spray painted on the garage door.
Second stage kicks in when Nazis start getting violent. Kick those fuckers right in the crotch. Stop them from being able to breed.
Nazis are bred in religion, where they’re taught authoritarianism is morality. How do you kick them in the religion?
There’s a third.
