Attack on Titan is my all-time-favourite, fits your bill
Anime doesn’t sexualise underage people, because until the 2023 age of consent in Japan was 13. It’s 16 now, so for American prudes it’s still underage. Just don’t forget that in most of the world the age of consent is much much lower than in the US.
And if anything, this meme is a cultural appropriation as the American view is being pushed on another culture. If you don’t want to learn about and accept foreign culture - watch Marvell movies instead.
I just ctrl F’d “Undead Unluck” and didn’t find it so there’s that one. In fact, it even makes sure to establish the importance of healthy relationships! AND that beauty isn’t always in youth!
An no fan service/no upskirt/cleavage shots.
And no racist depictions.
I was going to say Knights of Sydonia, but in not sure all of those are strictly followed. At least there’s nothing overt. And a fantastic sci-fi to boot.
It’s lemonaid, I swear!
I’m sorry sir we don’t make those
3gatsu no lion
Love and Peace enjoyer!
That doesn’t narrow it down as much as you think. What genre are you looking for?
fantasy isekai
Campfire cooking in another world and Welcome to demon school, Iruma-kun! are my main recommendations. There’s also some trash that would fit your criteria, but I wouldn’t recommend watching that (like that one slime tamer anime I can’t recall the title of). Also a dozen or so otome villainess reincarnation anime should fit your criteria, those are getting pretty popular now, though I haven’t watched any of the anime yet. Also some older stuff like Inuyasha might be up your alley, but honestly it’s been too long since I’ve seen them in their entirety, so I can’t really remember. Obviously Isekai is by far the most fan service-y theme in every possible way since most of it leans into power fantasy aspects to flatter the target demographic. In fact, if this was an actual honest question, I would recommend looking at the broader fantasy category, where there is a lot more variety and quality to be found.
I was mostly messing around, but thank you for the in depth write up. since we’re on the subject, what do you recommend for fantasy?
Frieren is the obvious recommendation, with character-driven storytelling focused on philosophical themes. It is genuinely one of the best shows I’ve seen and it’s rare that my expectations for a manga adaptation are blown out of the water so completely. Delicious in Dungeon is also excellent and has more of a focus on little details and creatures (and food, of course) with a very different approach to storytelling and a smaller scope.
I’m a big fan of the comedy and character design in Helck, even if the production quality of the anime can’t quite match up to my other recs. The manga is definitely visually superior. The contrast between the darker aspects of the story and the comedic delivery is pretty unique as well.
Mushishi is an episodic seinen anime focused on mythology and has some of the most beautiful background art, though it has more of a historical setting with supernatural fantasy elements. If virtual fantasy settings are allowed, then I recommend Shangri-La Frontier, which looks like Isekai at first glance, but thankfully is not. It’s also by far the most shonen anime on this list, but very entertaining.
Those are what comes to mind, but I’m sure I’m missing some obvious picks.
I’ve seen most of those (and read all of helck), except for mushishi and shangri la; I’ll add them to my list!
I think most of my list applies
Maybe without
Steins;Gate because of that scene where a guy gropes a girl (though everyone rightfully calls him out for being a creep)
Castlevania because sex scene
Akudama Drive because Doctor is heavily sexualized
Fullmetal Alchemist because Lust is Lust
Cowboy Bebop because Faye is kinda sexualized
Supercrooks because the intro (which is a bop and you should listen to it anyway)
Redline because of one scene with boobs
Ghost In The Shell because boobs
Niea_7 because the very racist Indian stereotype
Bubblegum Crisis because boobs
Read Or Die because cleavage
Cyberpunk Edgerunners because nudity (it’s Cyberpunk lol)
That looks like a lot of exceptions, but it’s only 12 out of 57 shows/movies
To be clear; nudity is fine, just not all-the-time, male-gaze shots put in akin to commercial breaks. Like Gurren Lagan; someone told me to try that one and ye gods the amount of times it was about boobs was ridiiiiiculous.
Ranking of kings, erased, the promised neverland, deca-dence, fullmetal alchemist, pokemon.
You might find some examples but the themes dont really lend to that.
If what you really wanted was of list of animes to avoid let’s start with Basilisk.
So basically Miyazaki movies
Definitely Monogatari or To Love-ru or KissxSis
Would like to know the content of that page.
I don’t get it. Is the joke that most anime sexualizes underage characters and glorifies unhealthy relationships? Because that’s decidedly not true. There are all kinds of anime shows, it’s just a bias in what gets imported into western countries.
You’ve either only seen one single anime that so happened to not feature any of that stuff, you’re actually INTO that kind of stuff and don’t want to admit it, or you’re in extreme denial.
“No Game No Life” literally introduces you to its main female character, who I believe is like 11 years old, with a panty shot.
“My Hero Academia” has Momo, who is a high schooler who consistently has to expose herself to use her quirk. (With constant heavy cleavage for her hero suit)
Look, I love anime, and there’s no shame in watching it, but you have to admit that a lot of it is pretty sexualized and moreso with children. (Don’t even get me started on that whole trope of “woman who is a million years old but actually looks like a 4 year old” )
You’ve listed two shows that are popular with western audiences. There is a lot of fan service in shonen anime and for a while now that was the most common genre available outside of Japan. I think the vast majority of what’s currently airing has no fan service at all.
You’ve either only seen one single anime that so happened to not feature any of that stuff
Overall, most anime do not feature “that stuff”, so I’m really wondering if you’re the one that has only seen a couple shows and drew their conclusion from that.
you’re actually INTO that kind of stuff and don’t want to admit it, or you’re in extreme denial
What the fuck is this shit? Are you going to say that to everyone who disagrees with you?
Look, I love anime, and there’s no shame in watching it
I really don’t get that feeling from the rest of your comment. You’re painting a very generalized picture of the medium as a whole.
- Barakamon
- Honey and Clover
- Shirobako
- Mushishi
- Shōwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjū
- Nodame Cantabile
- Silver Spoon
- March Comes In Like a Lion
I do agree that Japanese culture is less prude than US culture, and the age of consent has been 13 in Japan for a long time (it was raised to 16 a couple of years ago). So that will bleed into mainstream media in a way that sticks out to Americans, but not because it was the intent of the producer to make the show sexualized - it’s just what life in Japan looks like.
In a similar way, while Americans are scared of nudity, they are desensitized to violence and put way too much of it in US shows. IMO, I’d rather let my kids see nudity than someone being shot in the head. But neither is the primary reason that I watch a show.
Look through actual popular animes. Dragon ball is weird as shit.
So don’t watch popular animes. Just because most weebs are pedos and watch shows that cater to them doesn’t mean most shows cater to them
The national age of consent was 13 but I don’t believe any prefecture had an age set that low. It’s the same story for most nations that have it set that low
Living in Germany was eye-opening when I noticed all of the broadcast TV adaptions of US movies would leave in all of the nudity and sex, and cut all of the violence. The exact opposite from the practice in the US.
There were a bunch of German kids at my boarding school. When I asked one if they really had nudity on TV he responded “Yes, you guys actually show people being killed on TV and we think that’s much worse than tits”
There was a time, where the A team was made, where they went to ridiculous lengths to show that there was nobody killed.
MacGwyver had a no guns premiss.
Truly is…
Ehh… i don’t agree prude has anything to do with actual sexualization of children.
I am the complete opposite of prude. Always have been. I love sex and openly talk and joke about sexual things. But sexualizing children is just wrong. A panty shot of an 11 year old to entertain the viewer is not okay. As long as the character is an adult, show all the tits, ass and dick you want. Hell yeah! But not kids.
I’d like to point out that shows like My Hero Academia are aimed at highschoolers. I think the sexualization in MHA is not a big deal if you don’t watch is an adult.
Though I agree that panty shots of 11yo are too much even if we assume that the viewers are 11, too.
Yes, I’m not saying that that’s okay. What I’m saying is that the majority of anime produced in Japan is not like that.
Even One Punch Man, a pretty benign series that avoids sexual topics, has Tatsumaki who looks like a pre-teen. I know she’s supposed to be older, but when I first saw get I thought she was supposed to be 8 or something.
8? Where did you get that from?
Okay, I’m usually very bothered with female characters looking ultra-young, but Tatsumaki never registered as that young to me. I might have thought late teens at the earliest.
One punch man is a parody in it’s core though, I don’t know why people seem to take it so seriously. Even Tatsumaki can be read as making fun of the usual shounen loli character tropes, looking like how she does and being about thirty
There’s making fun of the trope, and then there’s actually leaning into it. I’ve seen the series and I’ve read the manga. It’s certainly getting leaned into.
No game no life is one of the best, fuck off you conservative prude.
Found the PDF file
I know you’re correct about MHA, but it’s odd you chose that one as your example. To my observation, it has been far more popular with young women and teenage girls than men.
Versus something like Black Clover which has episodes clearly designed to entertain tropes of sexual harassment.
Wrong
Also, rave culture has nothing to do with drugs.
Yeah, if youkl look at the list of longest running anime, it’s things like Sazae-san and Doraemon, which have almost no appeal to westerners
Silent voice, your name, weathering with you
and everything from studio ghibli obviously (I personally love porco rosso)
I honestly only look this kind. The rest is just bad and tries to cache it with fanservice.
Both with silent voice and your name i cried so damn much. Absolute masterpieces.
I haven’t seen Weathering with you yet. But i will check it out!
My father (~45) and I (~8) both fell in love with Ghibli (indistinctly remember my dad seeing Nausicaa on TV guide and saying “if it’s ghibli I’m not missing it”) after watching Spirited Away on Cartoon Network one random night in 2004 or so. Over the next 12 years I’d watch most of the rest of their catalogue & even visit their museum in Japan, but had yet to see PR until my birthday one year someone got it for me
I was NOT ready for that movie being what it was, nor the amazingly hard “better a pig than a fascist” line, and it’s my favorite from them and has been since
porco rosso enjoyer 🙌
I’m sorry to tell you this but while Weathering with You, Your Name, and Suzume don’t sexualize kids the head producer does
Your Name does in one scene
Chi’s Sweet Home:
I don’t even know what’s on that one page
How you got this many replies without a single mention of Cowboy Bebop is beyond me.
I love Cowboy Bebop but that series is one giant unhealthy relationship.
I don’t think it glorifies unhealthy relationships but it definitely features them
It also depicts racial minorities often kinda poorly, at least artistically. It’s been a while though. I don’t remember it treating them badly plotwise, just made some of them look like caricatures.
madoka is great too but same problem lmao
Just go with Trigun.
Vash & Knives have an unhealthy relationship, because of Rem.
Berserk
The entire plot revolves around Guts’ unhealthy relationship with Griffith. And there are 2 underage looking characters that want to steal Guts from him.
I love Berserk but uh Schierke having a weird crush on Guts definitely treads on the sexualizing-young-characters trope
Monster was pretty good. 🤷♀️
EDIT Shit someone already did that one.
Uh.
Uh!
Shigurui didn’t have any weird relationship shit I don’t think??
Attack on Titan doesn’t have any of the like underage stuff, though basically the whole show is based around a toxic relationship
I enjoyed Attack on Titan, but halfway through I realized I could literally not root for any of its characters. And by the end, I hated almost all of them.
It was basically “where the hell are they going with that story” more than anything. But it was worth it.
Yeah who by the end you can actually root for? Jean and conney?
You’ve never seen Spice and Wolf? Chihayafuru? Hibike! Euphonium? Mushishi? Samurai Champloo? Death Note? Inferno Cop?
Okay but Death Note is nothing but unhealthy relationships
I’m going to take a potato chip… AND EAT IT!!1!
Dunno, sounds about right to me.
Cory in the House?
Greatest anime ever
Full metal Alchemist is my bet.
Otherwise I know a lot of good animes but they tend to glorify unhealthy relationships looks at the space cowboy murdering people.
Jojo?
Just gonna forget about the rape ape are we?
I think I blocked that out of my mind. Why did you have to remind me?
The one enemy that appears briefly before getting beaten up into oblivion?
I agree that a lot of dark stuff happens in Jojo (heck, the protagonist of the 5th saga is a mafia boss), maybe it’s best for mature audiences.
Full Metal Alchemist brotherhood, maybe.
Winry is kinda sexualised, but only mildly, and not often
Just the one weird bathtub scene.
Well, and that time she almost accidentally flashes Ed, but they’re practically dating by that point, they just haven’t come to terms with it yet.
Yup it’s only one I can think of in the good animes that doesn’t glorify unhealthy relationships.
Them learning to let go of their mom was good. Very rare.
Monster.
Delicious in Dungeon, Frieren, Hands off my Eizouken, and Bocchi the Rock probably
Edited to add Spy x Family, and I suppose Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood depending on if one feels Winry’s tiny skirts are sexualized.
My daughter (11) wants to watch more anime than what’s on Netflix. Are these good for girls that age, you’d guess?
If she has creative passions, she might love Hands Off My Eizouken. It’s a show about 3 high school girls who start their own anime club, and work on making a short animation for their first project. The girls are all just girls, weird fun gremlins, whacky passionate kids who want to make something cool together. I can’t remember anything problematic, they even managed to avoid sexualizing a bath episode, but you should screen it first obviously.
Bocchi would be great for any kid who has had or does have trouble fitting in due to being quirky or different, and has a similar premise of girls getting together to be creative but a different (but also good) vibe.
Agreeing with the other posters that Frieren wouldn’t be a good choice yet. Delicious in Dungeon might be, but that would be kid dependent and another you would want to screen first to see how you think she’d take it. The tone is mostly light and goofy but there are definitely some scary moments in there.
Missingno mentioned Little Witch Academia and I would absolutely second that, it’s cute and wholesome and definitely appropriate for kids
As an enjoyer of non-fanservice Animé, but knowing how different people around the world have different attitudes to appropriateness, I’m going to say that you’re going to have to carefully filter any list yourself.
For example, all of Girls Under Panzer is free from fan service / sexualization, (apart from the short OVAs which are nothing but that stuff) … but some people don’t like it’s playful attitude to WW2 history.
SuperCub is another series that features zero sexualisation, but contains themes around depression, isolation, and struggling with interpersonal relationships.
Gundam: The Witch from Mercury, again no sexualization but features fighting against patriarchal systems and a love story of lesbanins.
It’s possible that none of these are appropriate for your daughter, when I was 11 I would have devoured them and come back for more.
Then there’s stuff like Born in Abyss which looks like a cutesy kids adventure but then descends into multiple layers of horror … so, tread carefully.
Frieren is very violent. Amazing show, but definitely not for kids.
Bocchi has exactly one fanservice gag I can recall, but it’s a fairly tame one. Probably fine, the whole rest of the show has nothing else inappropriate I can think of. It is sub-only though, so I guess it really depends on whether she’s fine with reading subtitles?
Delicious in Dungeon, some violence but nothing gory, compared to Frieren I don’t think it’s too much.
I haven’t seen the other one that was mentioned so I can’t speak for it.
Honestly I’d say it depends on your daughter and what you think she can handle. I’m not a parent, so it’s hard for me to judge. Maybe screen a few episodes for yourself and decide what you think is appropriate?
Edit: Though just to add one more nomination for you, Little Witch Academia immediately comes to mind as a show I think would be absolutely perfect for that age.
Ooo yes Little Witch Academia is perfect
My dad let me rent an anime when I was 11 or 12. He was like “eh get whatever, it’s cartoons.”
I chose Ninja Scroll.
I turned out fine hahaha
For those unititiated, this anime movie includes a woman who is literally toxic to sleep with. Her body poisons any of her partner and they die shortly after.
This is confirmed with a scene where someone sleeps with her against her will. It is very not appropriate for a 12 year old.
It was absolutely not appropriate. Add to that the HORRIFICALLY gratuitous dismemberment, decapitation, and other gruesome acts of torture… the fucking honestly was the LEAST of the issue.
My little brain was like “whoaaaa… anime is bad ass!”
Then I moved on to stuff like Azumanga, Excel Saga, and Cat Soup. Yknow, the hardcore stuff.
Delicious has a bunch of fanservice but it’s all a joke and entirely focused on the dwarf character who is an old man.
I mentioned it above, but i think you should check out “campfire cooking in a strange world with my unique skill.” There’s some monster violence but no people get hurt, for what that’s worth. Overall, thematically, it’s very light and comedic. There might be a few curse words but nothing crazy i don’t think…
i wasn’t watching it with the lens of how it would be for children so your mileage may vary, but it was very light-hearted and silly.
Eizouken, absolutely
My 11 year old sister’s recommendation for 11 year old girls: Sk8 the Infinity
It’s a campy sports anime about an underground skateboarding gang where people skate “to the death” (nobody dies).
It’s on Crunchyroll or wherever you get your anime ;)
Medalist
By the grace of gods
Non non biyori
Laid back camp
The ancient magus bride
New game
Himouto Umaru chan
In the land of Leadale
I’ve been killing slimes for 300 years
Kuma kuma kuma bear
Log horizon
Ranking of kings
Shadows house
Spy x family
Spice and Wolf
Ascendance of a bookworm
Girls und panzer
Prince of tennis I think is clean
Girls Under Panzer put all the fan service into a separate series of short (under 5 mins) OVAs, so it’s avoidable but does exist …
Don’t worry, the number of people saying Frieren is a child is astounding
Although she appears to be very young, she was born into a long-lived race of elves and has lived for over a thousand years.
Oh, that old chestnut.
As everyone else has said, she’s not a child-but-actually-ancient. The show is not about sex. It’s about mortality. I started watching it, and I want to continue, but it’s really depressing. I wasn’t in the right mood to keep going.
As far as I’m aware, there are absolutely no sexual undertones in the show. It’s sometimes funny, but it’s also pretty serious.
That trope bothers me too, but basically any anime female is going to look the same anywhere from 12 to 40 due to the way the features are stylized. So, looking for context clues is how you find the age of a character if it’s not explicitly said. Frieren is absolutely treated like, dresses like, and acts like an adult. She’s smaller than a human man, larger than a dwarf or human child, and while she’s infantalized a little by Fern it’s very much in the “how are you this old and still not taking responsibility for x” way.
Not really, she really is just an old elf lady who looks like a young adult human. There’s nothing sexualised about her, and she’s not childlike. For example here she is next to a human child who becomes her apprentice:
And here she is talking to a human priest she was adventuring with 50 years ago, he’s grown old, she hasn’t changed:
And here she is head patting him, to give him reassurance that he did well after he confides that he never felt like he figured out how to be “a grown up” and just kept faking it while growing old:
The human child is Fern, and the old Priest Heiter picked her up after she was orphaned by a demon attack. Heiter asks Frieren to keep taking care of Fern after his death, and mentor her in magic.
It’s a really nice relationship driven story with an interesting storyline and magic system.
That’s a nice change of pace.
It’s not the 1000-year-old-who-looks-8 trope, it’s the 1000-year-old-who-looks-25 trope. She’s never portrayed as anything close to childlike.
This is the first time I see someone other than me mention Eizouken. One of my favorite anime
It’s so good! It’s one of my absolute favorites too. The highschool girls are just all believable and grounded characters with real personalities and quirks. The whole thing is really well done.
Maybe Saihate No Paladin, Nichijou, and Azumanga Daioh as well.
I love Azumanga, but Nichijou might be one of my favorites of all time. It’s got Azumanga vibes but cranks everything up to 100.
How you gonna leave out Full Metal Alchemist?
It’s a great show but Winry does wear unnecessarily revealing clothes. I guess a big deal isn’t made out of it. The one that’s a major omission is Spy X Family actually
She’s not sexualized but she wears a crop top thing. “Oh, the audacity”
She was specifically drawn that way, it’s not like it was an accident. I acknowledge in her case it’s subjective though because I can’t remember any gratuitous angles and they don’t really focus on it.
You … DO realize that kind of judgement is merely a slightly more benign version of the same misogyny as the, “look what she was wearing! She was asking for it” type of thinking, right…? You realize at least some women choose to look pretty without wanting to be oggled or abused, right?
Women with large breasts and slim frames just exist as human beings in reality, but when it’s drawn in anime it’s a choice. Having the “camera” focus on upskirt shots or side boob is a choice. Animating boob bounce is a choice. So a 15 year old depicted in micro skirts and a bandeau, that has a bath scene and a scene where she takes her top off is a choice. This is in the context of a thread talking about anime sexualizing minors. If Winry was a living, breathing girl, she could make those choices herself, in the privacy of her own life, but this is an anime character where she was specifically drawn that way in an industry that is overwhelmingly male dominated. FMA:B IS a very good show, and Winry is a real character with actual traits and a personality, but pretending that all of these design and story decisions weren’t made on purpose by people who almost certainly were adult men is naive.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aAOegc0ezGk&pp=ygUQd2lucnkgYmF0aCBzY2VuZdIHCQmNCQGHKiGM7w%3D%3D
I feel like campfire cooking would fall into this as well
As much as I fuckin love Frieren they totally sexualize Fern when she’s under 18, though tbh it does feel less gross than usual considering how clothed she is & the weird relationship she has with her master
Frieren is suuuuuper jealous of Fern once she starts developing (with the show repeatedly using camera angles to show it) and Fern’s 18th birthday is in the later half of the first season. It was funny and rather realistic having been around girls that behaved like that, but as an adult man it was obvious the camera had a serious liking of staring at Fern’s chest whenever it could
Silent voice, your name, weathering with you and everything from studio ghibli (I personally love porco rosso)
Eden of the East I think fits. There’s definitely unhealthy relationships, but they’re not glorified by any means, quite the opposite in fact.
One of my favs personally, short enough to jump in and finish easily as well for new viewers.
Eh, they exist. You’ve got classics like Death Note and more recent stuff like Frieren. It’s definitely a short list though.
Sadly, Frieren justifies genocide against creatures with free will and intelligence.
Creatures with free will and intelligence who evolved those capabilities (and speech) with the sole purpose of being better at hunting humans.
Creatures with free will and intelligence who eat humans. Not because they need to eat humans, mind, they’re perfectly fine eating other things, but because they genetically like to kill and eat humans.
Creatures with free will and intelligence who are biologically incapable of feeling emotions like empathy, sympathy, guilt, or remorse. Seriously, some have spent centuries trying to learn how to feel them, and have failed.
Creatures with free will and intelligence who’ll be the first to admit that they’re better described as savage deceitful beasts, and that it’d be foolish and suicidal to trust them as far as you can throw them.
And, that said, Frieren the character advocates (with extremely good evidence backed reason) for their genocide, but the book and the authors don’t seem to do the same thing.
There’s plenty of characters that try to get along with demons, or trust them (and often pay dearly for it), and plenty of chapters where we see the demons’ point of view and can’t fail but to somewhat empathize with them, even if they’d be unable to reciprocate.
At no point do the book or the authors try to make the readers hate demons. They make us fear them, sure, but mostly they make us feel empathy and pity for them.
Hell, the fourth fan favourite character is a demon (and what a fantastic character it is).
(Granted, the third are the mimics, but still.)
I had never heard of this show before today but what you just described makes it sound cool as fuck, I’m gonna check it out now
Couple tidbits before you get to it:
- The first four episodes were released at once and it’s recommended to watch them in one sitting.
- While season 1 has some great demon characters (and a lot of great non-demon ones), that fourth fan favourite one won’t show up until season 2, which is currently in production and is expected to come out in January 2026.
Why is that sad? The depiction of demons as creatures that are incapable of empathy and exploit human compassion as an evolutionary strategy is interesting and makes for good drama and moral conflicts in the show. I’m honestly tired of the standard plot about demons just being misunderstood poor little babies that humans bully for seemingly no reason. I understand why that is a popular theme - it resonates with most of our own history after all, but it’s been done to absolute death.
They are shown to have morality and free will, so there are some who can follow and believe our morality. Every time Frieren fires first she is in the wrong.
I would also enjoy that kind of story, but then the author wanted to make demons interesting and gave them free will and morality. This is what ruins the show for me.
You either haven’t watched or are making up headcanon to justify your opinion.
What disagreement do you have with what I’ve said? I’ve watched the anime and even read through the manga, up to when they defeat the golden demon.
Other people have already provides detailed examples, while you have not, in this thread AND one 2 weeks ago. I don’t see any point in arguing with you because you’ve clearly decided you don’t like the show and that’s ok, but going on every thread where frieren comes up and insisting it’s glorifying actual human genocide is ridiculous and exhausting.
They do have free will but where have you seen any depiction of morality as humans understand it? You also need to understand that a characters thoughts and actions are up to your own interpretation and do not necessarily reflect the authors opinions. Even if I were to disagree with Frieren the character as strongly as you seem to, then it still wouldn’t detract from my enjoyment of the show. I don’t need my entertainment to regurgitate my own morals to me.
The morality I speak of is the one of hierarchy and magical power. The fact that they have both a moral system and free will means that they can chose to adopt another moral system. Frieren can’t know if every demon follows the same system.
That’s not a moral system, that’s mere survival instinct.
A (Frieren’s world) demon will always do what best serves their own interests; if a more powerful demon tells them to do something they’ll do it out of pure self preservation, and bide their time until they can be the one on top, or at least get away and carry on on their own.
No morality is involved, because morality as a concept (as we humans understand it) is so alien to them as colours to someone born blind.
Frieren has known many demons, including Macht. She has studied them for a thousand years. She can and does know.
By definition, if a demon learned how to feel empathy, or compassion, or anything like that, it would no longer be a demon.
But the point is moot, because it’s been demonstrated that they biologically can’t feel those emotions, even if they wanted to.
And so does Lord of the Rings. It’s fantasy, having obviously good people and obviously bad people you kill without remorse is part of the genre.
Yes, and that is exactly the moral dilemma Tolkien had. He believed that killing orcs are wrong unless there is a very good reason, so he would have thought it was wrong to kill demons unless there is a very good reason.
I think the orcs/demons being hell-bent on killing humans is a sufficiently good reason.
Tolkien disagrees with you.
I don’t think he does. The whole point of Sauron trying to enslave Middle Earth is exactly the justification you need for the mass slaughter of the “enemy”. If the orcs were spending the days idly farming and smoking hobbit pipes, you would have a whole other argument against genocide.
you dropped this, /s
Sorry to say this, but this a genuine belief I have that makes me unable to enjoy Frieren :(
I hope that the writer solves this conundrum by either making it clear that demons don’t have free will, or make it so that Frieren doesn’t want to commit a genocide.
Frieren’s emotions on the matter are addressed in episode 7.
Episode 7 and 8
The demons acted as peace envoys.
Its turns out that was a lie to get the humans to turn off the magic force field so they could attack with their demon armies.
Frieren’s indifference to killing demons is shown to be a necessity for survival.
It can be a bit hard to wrap our heads around. Humans don’t really face natural predators anymore, so it can be tough for many of us to imagine the kill or get eaten life style.
Imagine if man-eating spiders started to talk to us, transformed to look like us and became our friends only so we’d let our guard down and open the door to the their spider army. Humans squash bugs indifferently all the time. To Frieren, demons are man-eating bugs that need squashing.
As for free will, the demons we see do seem have free will, which they use to kill humans, again its a kill or be killed world. It’s about survival, not a senseless eradication of a group of people.
Qual from ep2 seemed like a nice guy, until you remember he invited the killing spell is being executed for the mass-muder of humans, 80 years in the past.
If I, a known child killer, fails to kill a child, and that child grows up to become Hitler. I am then not justified in the murder I attempted.
As long as the demons have free will Frieren will always be in the wrong for shooting first.
If Frieren doesn’t kill the demons, the demons will kill them. The difference between child Hitler and a demon, is that Frieren knows what the demon will do in the future, just like we know what happens when you release a hungry lion in a room full of antalope.
Frieren might be shooting first in the battle, but the demons shot first in the war.
The demons use human sympathy to gain trust and it works. You feel for them, you want to protect them, may even be attracted to them, and give them a chance and that’s their whole stick. They’re just hungry lions that transformed to look like their prey.
Hitler, and the Nazis, had believed that certain groups of people were inferior and a that only a superior race should exist. So what did the rest of the world do? Those that could fight, fought back to survive and protect those that couldn’t.
If we’re going to compare roles; Demon king is Hitler, demons are the Nazi forces, Frieren and her party are the allied forces. In the show Frieren is defeating the remnants of an active terrorist cell following in the footsteps of the demon king/Hitler.
If you try to put Frieren in the Hitler role, it doesnt make sense. She doesn’t go from town to town murdering anything that’s not an elf. She’s not gaining followers to take over the kingdoms.
You could call Frieren racist towards demons; but if a group murdered your entire village, and you watch them do it to countless others over a thousand years, never meeting a “nice” demon, you’d provably learn to shoot first too.
As someone who hasn’t watched frieren, this seems more like a war than a genocide
Yes, it is a war. Almost all demons they meet (and kill) are soldiers. But Frieren’s philosophy is one of total annihilation. She wants to kill all demons, no matter if they’ve killed or not.
The problem is that the author seems to want to make this philosophy the morally just one in universe while at the same time giving demons the ability to chose if they want to kill or not. I’m more irritated at the author for not thinking things through.
Frieren reminds me of my readings about the 19th century Texas Rangers (see Cult of Glory (2020) by Doug J. Swanson) and how Native Americans were literally seen as vermin to be exterminated, even if they assisted in exterminating other indigenous. In real life, a lack of communication and 15th century epidemics divided indigenous peoples who could have otherwise defended their sovereignty; once indigenous children learned the conquering host people’s language (English) and affirmative action applied to close egregious wealth gaps, indigenous people have proved to be ordinary people with another skin color (evidence: me, a member of the Navajo Nation). Frieren, in contrast, portrays a demon child as being irredeemably evil even though they learn the host language and are given second chances and extra attention (by the Himmel); the author implies there is some cognitive divide due to demons being solitary creatures who raise and teach themselves from a very early age (presumably much earlier than the failed experiment Himmel performed); however, that subtlety isn’t emphasized and demons are more akin to starfish aliens than people.
Overall, I think provoking controversy and discussion around this point is valuable because it invites people to debate the nature of Otherness. In which ways can a person be different enough before they stop being people? What exactly are the differences between “person” and “beast”? Is focusing on those differences the root cause of genocide? Do we hesitate to relax the requirements to be considered a person because we dislike the economic consequences? (e.g. the horror of teaching factory farmed animals to speak)
I personally consider demons in Frieren analogous to indigenous before colonizing powers, albeit sustained by their long life spans and tendency to independently discover powerful technology (magic). I doubt the author is thinking very hard along these lines, and so fear they will fall back on tried and true story patterns in which animalistic heathens are purged to make way for civilization. But I hope to be surprised.
We’ve seen the point of view of demons. They’re not human, or human analogues, in any way, shape, or form.
They just look and act like humans, as a form of predatory camouflage.
They’re a perfect example of blue and orange morality (warning, TV Tropes link, abandon all hope ye who enters here).
We’ve seen (in the manga) a demon spend centuries doing his best to learn how to experience empathy, sympathy, or guilt, so he and other demons can become something that can coexist with humans without one or both of them inevitably ending up extinct.
He failed.
There’s no possible long term future in Frieren’s world where both humans and demons exist, unless demons change so fundamentally that they stop being demons (which would be a paradox of sorts, as real demons would then be extinct).
Demons have one choice: remain true to their nature and eat or exterminate all humans, or cease to be.
Humans have one choice: let themselves be exterminated, or exterminate all demons.
No side is committing genocide, they’re just fighting for their own survival, in a world that gives them no other option.
I do think there are valuable conversations to be had about the concept of a creature that is considered ontologically evil and wholly irredeemable.
But I also think reducing that conversation to “Frieren bad” sucks.
Thank you, that’s a very nice writeup. I agree with you that the author probably isn’t thinking as hard as, for example Tolkien did with his orcs. However, I wouldn’t compare the demons in Frieren to indigenous people in america. It’s clear that many demons are really violent, however, even if a lot, or even a majority, of demons are evil, we can’t condem their entire race.
All the classics like the Ghibli stuff. Lots of more serious stuff doesnt have those issues either like Vinland Saga or Attack on Titan. Also cute stuff like Yuru Camp.
It’s not that short, you just need to pick a genre different from shounen if you don’t like fanservice. Also many older shounen are good, think about the Digimon, Pokémon and Gundam franchises to name a few famous ones.
i don’t watch anime and yes this is my opinion on it
Bubble gum crisis… Booooomers hahahah
I will do you one better. instead of going for one series search for seinen genere. you can also add some cyberpunk
Asobi Asobase
Reposting from the last time this subject came up
Bolded titles are my top recs. Series listed in chronological order of my seeing them:
Steins;Gate (correction: episode 8 unfortunately has one character grope another one. Everyone rightfully calls him out for being a creepass)
Castlevania (shut up yes it is)
Vivy: Fluorite Eyes Song
Violet Evergarden (not the movie)
Hyouka (skip the ova)
Belle
A Silent Voice
Baccano
Deca-dence
Trigun
Akudama Drive
ACCA: 13 Territory Inspection Dept.
Fullmetal Alchemist
Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood
Spy Family
Mushishi
5 Centimeters Per Second
Afro Samurai
Your Lie In April
Nichijou
Odd Taxi
Cowboy Bebop
Canaan
Sk8 the Infinity
Supercrooks
Bocchi the Rock
House of Five Leaves
Weathering With You
Haibane Renmei
Samurai Flamenco
BNA
Redline
Planetes
Last Exile
Witch Hunter Robin
Noir
Wolf’s Rain
Boogiepop Phantom
Boogiepop And Others
Ghost In The Shell (all timelines)
Niea_7
Serial Experiments Lain
Megalo Box
Bakumatsu Kikansetsu Irohanihoheto
Samurai Champloo
Bubblegum Crisis
Ergo Proxy
Read Or Die (OVA and The TV)
Madlax
Moribito
Xam’d: Lost Memories
Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind
Kyousougiga
Orb: On the Movements of the Earth
Cyberpunk Edgerunners
Sonny Boy
Kiki’s Delivery Service
Thus concludes the exhaustive list of animes I’ve watched where I didn’t have to put up with any sexualization of minors
And no child soldier business. Kids don’t need to be going to war