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It’s is not either or. Also good cli require an eye for design just like gui. Lots of cli suck because there is no eye.
Yeah I totally agree. But still, I feel like there are much more terrible GUI programs out there than terrible CLI programs. The only truly awful CLIs I can think of is that tool for managing MegaRAID controllers that has the weird abbreviations everywhere, and shell interfaces to GUI-first bloatware like Dconf that were probably added as an afterthought. I think with CLI there’s only so many things that the developer can fuck up. It’s all just text. Meanwhile with GUI there are endless opportunities for truly horrid design. Think of Teams. Think of the github web interface. Think of the r*ddit redesign. Or go watch that Tantacrul video on Sibelius. CLI could never have such a breadth of terribleness.
Arch’s package manager is pretty terrible.
Here’s two commands. See if you can guess what they might do:
pacman -S package_name pacman -SyuSolution
The first command installs a package.
The second command updates all packages.I believe, there’s some sort of logic to the letters, but man, most users seriously do not care. They just want to install, update and remove packages 99% of the time, so they shouldn’t need to learn that intricate logic for three commands.
I guess, you could usepkconto do that instead, but that doesn’t really help new users…AFAIK, arch never pretended to cater to new linux/cli users, I’ve always read it as a recommandation for advanced (or at least comfortable with reading docs and using CLI) users.
My first time using arch required me following the arch wiki for install and when I finally got a working system (I’m as bad at following tutorials as I am at following cooking recipes) thepacmancommands were not something I struggled with.
But yeah coming from Debian where I had the gloriously intuitiveaptsyntax, I get your point.Advanced users would still benefit from good design.
I do agree, I’m just not surprised it wasn’t done this way at the start and I’m not bothered enough by it to want a change.
I only learned what
pacman -Syumeant, after literal years of typing it in not knowing anything other than “this updates the packages”, because I got curious and googled it.To me it was just an adeptus mechanicus incantation.
EDIT: And I still have no clue how ‘y’ translates to ‘refresh the database’. Like. Sure. S to synchronise from the server to the computer. And u to mark for update all the updatable packages. But – Why the fuck is ‘y’ the refresh?
The
ystands for “yoink the database”./s
I think they either just ran out of letters, or
ywas seen as reinforcing the action (as in “yes, download the database too”), withyybeing an even stronger action (“yes, download the database even if there’s nothing to update”).
Arch presumes that the user has some familiarity with CLI tools and can read documentation. You couldn’t even install it without using the terminal until archinstall became a thing. If it’s an issue, Arch is the wrong OS for you.
Besides:
pacman -S- synchronises packages between the remote and local repo.pacman -Q- queries the local repo.pacman -R- removes packages.pacman -F- queries the files of a package.
Et cetera.
Ui designers should not presume people are familar with the ui. That’s not design.
I figured, I’d ruffle some feathers by saying that. 😅
But yeah, I stand by my point. Just because your target users are capable of dealing with complexity, doesn’t mean you should be making use of that rather than simplifying usability, since your users have plenty other things they could be learning instead.I will caveat that I can see it becoming worth it to learn an intricate logic for a power user, when things fall into place and make sense at a higher level as you learn more about it.
But in my experience, that’s just not the case with package managers. You need a few specific commands to be obvious and then the special cases can be obscure flags.
You think that’s bad? For as much as I love seeing a well-configured Nix system, it’s beginner-unfriendly learning curve is almost as bad as “compile everything yourself” distros.
As a beginner, do you have a question about Nix? RTFM. You did? Well, wrong Nix. You wanted to learn something about Nix the language, but those docs were about Nix the OS and Nix the package manager.
You just read a guide for using the nix command and wanted to install a program with nix-env? That’s an outdated guide. You should be using flakes and
nix profile. You tried that, but it said the nix command is experimental so you didn’t do it? No, you were supposed to edit /etc/nix/nix.conf to enable them first.Don’t get me wrong here though, I like Nix. It just desperately needs an actual beginner-friendly beginner guide for flakes and
nix commandcommands that doesn’t assume everyone is a software developer. 80% of the Nix documentation tutorials aren’t even relevant to regular users, only package maintainers and NixOS users.
i raise you the man command
Manpages are great though? They’re not the best if you need examples, but as a reference for the behavior of flags? I love’em.
Install tldr if you haven’t already
thanks for the reminder! I’ll try it out
Eh, I’m fine with man pages. I looked at tldr before, but I’ve been using the command line for many things almost exclusively for like 10+ years now. I usually just need the reference details.
But that’s why I love tldr!
It gives written examples of a handful of the most common use cases with a super brief explanation. It’s perfect for quick reference.
But you do you, I don’t own any tldr stock or anything.
The good thing about CLIs is that if they suck too much, you can easily create a wrapper around them.
I use Linux and I prefer GUIs. I’m the kind of person that would rather open a filemanager as superuser and drag and drop system files than type commands and addresses. I hope you hax0rs won’t forget that we mere mortals exist too and you’ll make GUIs for us 🙏🙏🙏
I would say “why not, to each their own” if not the thought about what else the filemanager is going to do with root access (like downloading data from web for file preview). But the general sentiment still stands, it is absurd to think that computer must be used only in one way by all people
I use both, depends a bit on the task at hand. Generally simple tasks GUI and complex ones CLI. Especially if I want anything automated.
Tbf, the file explorer is actually one really good argument for GUIs over terminals. Same with editing text. Its either simple enough to use Nano or I need a proper text editor. I don’t mess around with vim or anything like that that.
Its all tools. Some things are easier in a file manager, some things are easier in a GUI.
Nano, the best text editor
Yeah I prefer fancy text editor too. And my biggest heartbreak was learning that I can’t just
sudo kate(there’s a way to use Kate to edit with higher privileges but I never remember how, edit: apparently it’s opensuse specific problem).Born to Kate, forced to nano
The problem is running GUI code as root as it’s never been vetted for that. What you want, effectively, is to have
EDITORvariable of your session set tokateand open system files usingsudoedit. I’m a terminal guy myself, so this exact thing is enough for me. Having said that - I’m sure someone will chime in with a plugin/addon/extension/etc that adds this to the right click context for what I assume is KDE. Or you can try looking for that om your favourite search engine.
I think it depends, if I have a simple file structure and know where stuff is, it’s pretty efficient to do operations in the terminal.
If I have a billion files to go through a file manager might be easier.
You’ve angered the Emacs gods 😨
Good. They need to be humbled haha
FWIW I do use the file browser too when I’m looking for a file with a useful preview, e.g. images.
When I do have to handle a large amount of files though (e.g. more than a dozen) and so something “to them”, rather than just move them around, then the CLI becomes very powerful.
It’s not because one uses the CLI that one never used a file browser.
I once did
rm \*accidentally lol. I now have a program that just moves files to trash aliased as “rm” just in case. I just don’t feel confident moving files in CLIYeah, when I need to inspect lots of images I just open the folder in gwenview.
For peeking at a single picture or two through you can hold down control and click/hover on the filename when using Konsole. Love that feature. You can even listen to
.wavfiles this way.
I tried to learn superfile thinking it could make terminal more exciting but nah.
Gimme that comfy file explorer gui.
Totally agree.
It depends. But yeah I’d rather use something like Handbrake than raw dog FFmpeg.
And the 4 linux users in the world kept jacking themselves off and then whining about how windows is more popular for having a UI
Nothing wrong with CLI. It is fast and responsive.
Unless you want mainstream use. Because the majority of people can’t even use a UI effectively. And CLI is much worse.
A Windows or LInux evangelist who’s also vegan - now that’s a formidable combination.
That’s it, I need to hook up a controller to my PC so I can open Htop with a button press
Just use a MIDI controller or an Arduino button box. You can do it!
What are you, a Tintin villain based on Greek stereotypes?
Almost as painful as using vim on your phone without an external keyboard
I genuinely use vim inside of termux on a daily basis. I dunno if I’m sick in the head or what, but I kinda like vim on my phone.
Yeah I was gonna say that while it sounds completely unusable, it’s surprisingly not too bad actually. Some of the more complex shortcuts can get pretty tedious, but nothing that a good config can’t solve.
I remember once my friend’s laptop died, and while it was in RMA he was using his phone with an external keyboard and mouse to develop a webapp lol. Just goes to show that any computing device that can run a web browser and VIM covers 90% of your daily software needs haha.
What keyboard do you use? Do you need something like Unexpected Keyboard, or are you still able to be productive in vim with a more “standard” Android keyboard?
Just default Gboard. It’s not pleasant, but it’s good enough for most of what I do.
Personally I just run gotop at startup and keep it on my second monitor. I know it’s a small waste of resources but I enjoy watching the blinkenlights.
If you’re on Xorg, you can also use xwinwrap to make gotop (or any other app) your wallpaper btw. Kinda useless on a tiling WM tho
Make all your windows translucent!
btop could be pretty controller friendly
I love btop!
Whenever someone cries about the command line, I just post the link to Cookie clicker for the mousers out there
chad move tbh
I worked customer support for a WordPress hosting company for a while, and about 70% of all of their troubleshooting was done in terminal. I never used terminal until that job. To this day I do most of my management the same way
There is nothing productive about searching online for some stupid command that is outdated for 2 years, breaks some shit and then you need another 2 hours to unfuck it because it’s not obvious from the long noodle of a command how to revert it. For something that could just be 3 clicks through control panel that every idiot could navigate without having to use online search engine.
So, I wonder what happens if we add an option for every single one of those tasks in the UI? O right!
msvc.exe is calling!
Why are you entering commands that you read about online without knowing what they do? There’s a running joke that you need to enter
rm -fr /to remove the French language from your system; it actually wipes the entire disk mounted to/.When you know what the commands do, using the terminal is always going to be faster (i.e., more productive) and use fewer system resources than using a GUI. That’s just a fact, sorry if it annoys you when people point it out. Whenever I need to move a lot of stuff around, I will always use
mvinstead of Thunar (my file manager) even though I prefer a GUI for most tasks.Most cli tools have a -h or a tldr entry.
Or a man page
Bold of you to assume that someone struggling with basic cli tools would read a man page.
You’re the type of guy we’re making fun of btw
It’s not the own you think it is…
Go to a free online AI (or run one locally) and ask it your Linux questions.
That way you won’t have to dig around old forums for answers.
this method saved me years of useless search for real
There are two different “efficiency” and “simplicity” perspectives clashing here. If you already are proficient with the CLI it’s arguably more efficient and/or simple than GUI solutions. If you are not then there’s literally a steep learning cliff in front of you, something many in the first group apparently either forget or otherwise want to ignore. It just sucks, some people in the community do have a lot of knowledge but a complete lack of understanding for people outside of their tech bubble.
I agree. For regular user facing tasks, the terminal should be a last resort. I say this as someone who will happily defer to the terminal if I need more advanced control. But when basic configuration is subject to just CLI, it’s not as accessible as it could or should be
Are the “Windows evangelists” in the room with us right now? Every Windows admin I know hates Microsoft with a burning rage. Literally the only people I’ve ever seen promote Windows are being paid to do it.
Counterintuitively, that’s one reason I like dealing with Windows: the community knows what it is and doesn’t pretend otherwise, like some other more “zealous” fan bases.
Literally the only people I’ve ever seen promote Windows are being paid to do it.
Yeah, that’s the demographic I had in mind. Lemmy is full of paid shills lol.
it’s Linux, who’s going to pay them Canonical? IBM? Wait, nvm, I could see IBM having paid shills
Do they have any money?
Think this is more of a accessibility thing. No one denies the CLI is really efficient to use if you’re a professional, it shouldn’t be the norm that you have to be proficient with it to use your computer to the fullest though. Nor to receive help if you don’t feel comfortable using it.
It would be nice if everyone could enjoy free and trustworthy computing, including people who either can’t or won’t learn many dozens text commands and paradigms.
I mean, the reverse is also true, people have memorized which buttons, menus, etc they need to click/drag with do be productive. Sometimes i m OK with all the clicking, but most times I just want to do the thing now.
Type 3 words or click through 9 context menus. 😅
Yeah exactly ANY interface made by humans speaks a design language, and it’s only “intuitive” insofar as the user understands that language. There’s nothing inherently “intuitive” about GUI, it’s a language that you’ve learned through a long process of trial and error. This is painfully obvious to anyone who’s ever had to help Grandma reset her gmail password out over the phone. Same for CLI. At first you’re copy-pasting commands from tutorials and struggling with man pages, but after a while you get used to the conventions. You learn that
-hhelps you out and--verbosetells you more and so forth. You could make the case that the GUI design language is more intuitive because it’s based of physical objects like buttons and sliders that many people are familiar with, but honestly ever since we abandoned skeumorphic design that argument rings a little hollow.That’s a very nuanced analysis. I’ve explained it this way especially to people who describe themselves as “bad at computers”. Hey, give yourself a break, you’ve learned a lot about how to cope with windows. But this investment leads to a conservatism— they dont want to learn coping skills o a new system. The devil you know.
I’d just add that GUI is more discoverable. When faced with a terminal, what to do? Whereas with a GUI you have a menubar, some icons etc. The GUI gives a lot more hints.
In the terminal (which I love) it is more powerful once you know how to crack the lid.
Exactly. You need documentation to figure out how to do anything in a CLI, and if you forget it’s back to the documentation, but a GUI exposes all its commands immediately, allowing the user to find things on their own.
Except the iOS UI, which is heavily reliant on gestures with varying numbers of fingers, pressure dependent touch commands that are difficult to pull off consistently (seriously, how the hell do you deliberately do the multi-select drag thing?), and hidden menus that are exposed by dragging in from specific portions of the screen at specific angles with no hint that they’re there.
This is an incredibly sane dissection, wasn’t expecting it under a meme
Software would be more useful if every end-user program has both GUI and minimal CLI modules, as in Dolphin vs cp, mv etc.
Why?
GUI: Year of the Linux smartphone
CLI: Automation, scripting.
For a program at work the scripting language is Delphi and the Documentation is not available. If you want to know something call the support. CLI is not an option.
It’d be really useful to have a CI run, but that is never going to happen.
TUI is a subset of GUI that uses text in a terminal to render UI elements. It does not make automation any easier. What you want is called CLI.
Works other way around too
“i shouldn’t have to memorise commands just to do basic tasks”
me:
